Episode 485 - Fishing Bristol Bay

In this episode Dagen Walton shares his life on Bristol Bay—growing up commercial fishing, running a small fly‑fishing lodge, and guiding guests on world‑class fisheries. Trout Unlimited Alaska Communications Director Marian Giannulis is also with us and provides important stats about Bristol Bay. She explains HB 233 which would go a long way in protecting the region from mining that would severely impact habitat for both subsistence use and the multi-billion dollar fishing industry. 

On Step Alaska — Transcript

Guests: Dagen Walton & Marian Giannulis

On Step Alaska: All right, Dagen and Marian, welcome to the podcast.

Marian Giannulis: Thank you.

Dagen Walton: Thanks, Jeff.

On Step Alaska: So I've been reading The Angler's Coast. It's a book by Russell Chatham, and he is fishing on the north coast of California. He's fly fishing, it's a couple hours north of San Francisco, and he's talking about catching 30-pound king salmon on the fly rod in freshwater. And it just makes me think about what we've lost and how sad it is — that book is like a time capsule, and all those classic writers are like a time capsule. And I think, man, it's all gone. And then I think it's not gone. It's at Bristol Bay, and people like Dagen were able to grow up there. So what was it like growing up in an angler's paradise that still exists?

Dagen Walton: It's amazing. Yeah, I feel really lucky. I've spent every summer of my life outside of, I think, five. I'm 32. And every summer I've spent out in Bristol Bay. Most of the time it's been in Knack Knack. And since our family ventured into the lodge business, now I get to spend a lot of time on the Kvichak River as well and the village of Igiugig.

On Step Alaska: And you're a third-generation commercial fisherman?

Dagen Walton: Fourth generation.

On Step Alaska: Fourth generation. Wow, that's pretty wild. What did you like better — do you like the guiding thing that you're doing, or the commercial fishing, or can you really compare?

Dagen Walton: It's a tie for first. Yeah, no, it's pretty cool to be on both sides of it. Growing up commercial fishing, I would say that that is definitely my main source of income. The fly fishing lodge is truly a passion project. It's something that we love and we've ventured into, but commercial fishing is kind of where I put hay in the barn. So they both have a different space in my mind — commercial fishing is work to me where guiding is kind of play.

On Step Alaska: What have you seen in the years that you've been there, and maybe what have your family noticed as far as trends when it comes to fish? It seems like around the state kings are kind of low, but Bristol Bay seems to just still be getting tons and tons of sockeye and the returns still seem to be fairly good. Maybe not so much with kings, but what have you noticed in your time there and your family's time there?

Dagen Walton: I've definitely noticed the run getting bigger, and I've also seen a lot of fluctuations in price. I remember when I was really young, probably eight, I remember tenders — the boats that we would offload our fish to and sell them — they'd have 50 cents painted on a piece of plywood with whatever cannery name it was. And now you don't see that as much. We didn't have a price posted prior to the season for a long time until this past year, actually. So I've seen a lot of different trends with price and the way canneries manage things, but also seen run size increase. And I think a lot of that has to do with the increased global temperatures that we're having. It helps the sockeye salmon a lot — their food source flourishes — and from that we've seen increased numbers. Marion could probably speak a little bit more to the science than I can, but I've definitely seen bigger run sizes and added consistency to those run sizes as well, especially in the last 10 years. It's been phenomenal.

On Step Alaska: Yeah, because the sockeye doesn't rely on herring and a lot of those baitfish as much as your kings and coho. I know down here in Southeast people are talking about the absence of herring in some of these areas — even Sitka, which has great herring, those populations are really good, but people are concerned. Obviously everything depends on herring, or most of the salmon depend on herring. So those warmer temperatures for something that's not eating a lot of those baitfish, it could be great for them.

Dagen Walton: Yeah, we've definitely seen the positive sides of their food source doing well and the runs being bigger.

On Step Alaska: When you're going out, what's like a good day? When people think about getting a lot of fish or making a lot of money, in like one set, how many fish are you getting? What's the poundage and what can you expect? Put a number if you can.

Dagen Walton: I would consider if you can do 10,000 pounds a day, you're going to have a good season. And if you can do more than that every day, then you'll have more icing on your cake. I saw a couple of the biggest sets — specific individual sets this past year — than I've ever seen. We had a 20,000-pound set and we had a 16,000-pound set. And doing rough math, that's roughly 4,000 to 5,000 fish if you're going off a five-pound average, which isn't always exact.

On Step Alaska: So with the good runs of sockeye, does it kind of spread people out, or are people sitting right on top of each other?

Dagen Walton: No. Yeah, it's the wild west. There's no way into traffic. That's the dog-eat-dog thing over there. It can get crazy.

On Step Alaska: Are people fairly understanding that that's just the way it is? So even though they're really aggressive, they're not going out of their way to be dangerous — or is it pretty mean?

Dagen Walton: It depends who it is. There's both, and they carry a reputation for good or bad in regards to that. But there's definitely some unspoken ethics out there that you try and abide by. And when someone doesn't, that's typically when you see the game of people toeing the line a little further. And then the guy taking a turn to move it a little further — yeah, seen some crazy stuff.

On Step Alaska: So what about the fly fishing season, the guiding? Is that like your time to just take a breath and really enjoy it? Or how does that differ from the commercial fishing?

Dagen Walton: It definitely is a lot more laid back. It truly is a family operation and it truly is just a passion project. That's given us some awesome opportunities to host some big groups with the youth. But then when it comes to guiding, I got the chance to go out with Marion and her husband Kyle this past fall, and it's just fun. We do a lot of do-it-yourself trips with our clients, and so a lot of the time I'm there at the lodge making sure clients are taken care of. But on the side of that, I get to go fish as well once the boxes are checked.

On Step Alaska: When did you start the lodge?

Dagen Walton: We purchased it in 2018. We closed on it in the summer of 2018.

On Step Alaska: Wow, so perfect timing for COVID. So you just start getting some momentum and then COVID shuts it down. How was that? Was that like, oh, this is a sign we got to just commercial fish because this is crazy?

Dagen Walton: Yeah, it was a wild time for everybody. It didn't matter where you were, it affected you in some way. But yeah, we don't host a ton of people, so it didn't affect us all that much, to be honest. In fact, it kind of allowed us to grow an even deeper passion and love for the area because there were so few people that we got to kind of take advantage of it and have a lot of fun. We brought our family out there for the opener in June after the river. The river's closed there until June 8th, from like middle of April until June 8th. And then we fished a lot with our family. That specific opener was really fun — it was just our family on the river. We could go anywhere we wanted, had no competition. So it was really memorable, actually.

On Step Alaska: That's so nice. And I think that's kind of how you'd want to run a lodge — small, intimate, not just trying to max the number of guests. Yeah, massive lodge and just kind of do things as you want to.

Dagen Walton: Yeah, and that's kind of our model. We don't want to overpressure the system because we care about it. That's part of it. And then we also just enjoy the more one-to-one relationship that we've been able to have with our clients. We're not spread thin. We get to spend as much time as the clients or us want to spend with each other. But we didn't buy the lodge with the idea of running an operation like this. We just wanted a cabin. And so basically we got a really big cabin that we are now able to meet new friends through or have some of our current friends come and visit us.

On Step Alaska: Do you close it up for the winter or is there someone there?

Dagen Walton: We close it up. We only operate in the month of September into October, really. We're very limited in our operation, mostly due to the commercial season. Like, in order to really make a profitable business in the lodge business, you have to be taking part in that salmon run and putting clients on that. So we still commercial fish and don't have any plans to stop doing that. And then after that's done, we go and see what fish we missed.

On Step Alaska: Any issues with bears or anything? You come back after a whole bunch of months and someone had left a candy bar out and a bear got in there, or do you get it nailed up pretty tight so there's no surprises?

Dagen Walton: All until this year, it was really, really good. And then this past winter, we did have a break-in at our lodge. There are three lodges on our side of the river and all three of them got broken into in some fashion. We didn't have too much damage, luckily. And then the only time it's ever happened while we've been there — we had a bear break in while we were there. Super early hours of the morning through the night. It broke our sliding door, broke the pane of glass, and came inside, which was surprising. But it didn't actually step foot inside. I don't know if it pawed up on the glass and then came down on all the shards and it spooked it, or maybe the sound had to have been really loud, but it didn't venture in past the sliding door. So yeah, it was kind of odd. We've never had any issues in seven or so years of running that place, and then this year we had a couple.

On Step Alaska: I mean, it makes for a better story, right? It's really broken in. It's an official bonafide lodge if you had a bear break in.

Dagen Walton: Yeah, absolutely. So we're there. Check the box.

On Step Alaska: So where did you get involved with the Bristol Bay Fly Fishing Guide Academy?

Dagen Walton: The first year we hosted that was 2021, I believe. Does that ring a bell, Marion? I'm trying to think. Because we had it scheduled and then it got canceled because of COVID the first time.

Marian Giannulis: That does sound correct. Yeah. I think it got canceled in 2020 and then we hosted in 2021. And then we hosted it again in 2024.

Dagen Walton: And that was where I met Marion. What does that entail? What's the hosting? Who's there? What's the main purpose of it?

Dagen Walton: The main purpose is to teach the youth in the area of Bristol Bay how to be guides and lodge owners and hosts. The kids that grow up in the Bristol Bay region — the most prevalent thing they'll see for career paths would be being a guide, a lodge host, some sort of hand at a lodge, or commercial fishing. The rivers that run through that area, that's the resource that mainly brings in terms of jobs and careers. Outside of maybe the inner workings of their villages and keeping things running there. And so this is a great opportunity for the youth in the area. They see it, they grow up around it their whole lives, and it gives them an opportunity to learn how they could chase that career if they choose to. Trout Unlimited takes in applications, as well as others — I can't remember all that helps. I know BBC has a little part in it. But they take in applications from youth and prioritize those who have ties to the area, and try and teach these kids how they could have an awesome career.

On Step Alaska: Marion, do you have anything to fill in on your end of that?

Marian Giannulis: Yeah, so the Academy started in 2008, and it runs every year except for the pandemic. It's a week-long program, totally free to the participants. It typically has between 10 and 15 students between the ages of about 14 and 21. And it's just a really incredible opportunity for them to have a crash course education in sport fishing, but really like guiding and tourism. That industry has grown exponentially in Bristol Bay in recent years. And I'm sure Dagen can speak to this, but you've seen a real growth in bear viewing in Bristol Bay, obviously sport fishing for both salmon harvest and catch and release for trout as well. The Academy was founded with the idea to make sure that local communities were involved in this growing industry and that local kids had opportunities available to them. Kids can come out for two years in a row — we cap it at two years — but they have an opportunity to really be mentored by some incredible teachers. We have people who've been within the sport fishing community in Bristol Bay for decades and decades. People like Nancy Morris Lyons, who owns Bear Trail Lodge, who's one of our lead instructors. We have Tristan Chaney, who is a local from Dillingham — him and Dagen have a lot in common and are good friends, both involved in the commercial and sport fish side of Bristol Bay. And there are these people who've had incredible success in the industry who are there to teach and mentor these students. It's not just sport fishing guides — there are quite a few instructors who have biologist backgrounds and can talk to the kids about all the different ways they can have a career path that is really linked with the health of the fishery and the lands and waters of Bristol Bay. So it's about creating sustainable employment opportunities for the people who live within Bristol Bay, and those employment opportunities help create these incredible stewards of the lands and waters. We've seen that with so many of our graduates.

On Step Alaska: How far does that expand? Because the Bristol Bay region has a good amount of communities that are kind of peppered around there, but there's not really an extensive road network. So how many different villages were represented and how did they get around?

Marian Giannulis: We charter a lot of planes. We have kids from every corner of Bristol Bay. And that also includes shareholders and descendants who don't currently reside within Alaska — we brought kids up from the lower 48. It's all dependent upon who the applicant is, what their story is, what their connection to the region is. Probably the biggest expense for the Academy is definitely airfare, getting everybody there. It's costly and difficult in remote Alaska, but it's so worth it. And thankfully we have a huge list of partners — certainly not just Trout Unlimited. We work really closely with the Bristol Bay Heritage Land Trust, United Tribes of Bristol Bay, Bristol Bay Native Corporation, many of the state and federal agencies within Alaska support it as well. We have private donors like Orvis who support the program. So it's such a group effort and a collaborative effort to create a really once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for these kids.

On Step Alaska: It's awesome. About how many total students, because you have a couple of those around the state, right? I think there was one in Angoon, or is that a slightly different program or under the same umbrella?

Marian Giannulis: Same umbrella. So this year we had our second guide academy in the Tongass. We've gotten a lot of interest from a lot of different parts of the state — people who've seen the success of the program in Bristol Bay and who wanted to replicate that elsewhere. So this is the second year that we've brought it to the Tongass, with a whole host of new partners down there. It's about the same class size, like 10 to 15 students per year — we keep it really intimate to make sure they're getting a lot of one-on-one education. And really, it's creating these lasting mentorships as well with the instructors who are there, who will go on and continue to support the growth and development of these students well beyond the week-long academy.

On Step Alaska: So it's really cool. Yeah, I think to me the coolest students are the ones that are shareholders that don't live in the region, and for some of them it's their first time seeing Bristol Bay. Those kids just have such an impactful experience — it's really eye-opening. And the guide academy — we've hosted that twice — but we've also hosted the Bristol Bay Native Corporation's culture camp, which isn't fishing-related at all. And those are like the coolest things that we've done at our lodge for sure.

On Step Alaska: When I was back in Klawock substitute teaching when I moved up, we had a field day. I took a van of kids to the river — the Klawock River, which is right there — and there were kids who'd never fished before. And I said, oh, you'd never fly fished before? And they said, no, never fished. I thought, you're 12 years old and this river is right here. You can walk to it from town. But if you don't have a mentor, if you don't have a dad or an uncle or an auntie or a mom or someone to take you there, you just never go. And it's shocking that you can have that disconnect. I think people in the lower 48 just assume that every person in Alaska, every kid, grows up fishing and hunting and everything, but that's not always true. And you get a lot of kids that buy into just the TikTok world and think that's what life is. And you have the great medicinal properties of just being outside, being around the wilderness, caring about something in the ecology, caring about the sustainability of it — and it's such a great opportunity for kids to be involved in that.

Marian Giannulis: When the Guide Academy was started — I wasn't there for the first cohort — but I would be surprised if any of those kids had ever touched a fly rod before. And that was part of the creation of the Academy. Nancy, our lead instructor, runs a lodge on the Knack Knack. She resides there year round. She's a basketball referee, really embedded within the community. So she was starting to introduce kids in the community to fly fishing, which culturally — I'd say most, if not all, of the indigenous cultures in Alaska — catch and release fishing is something that is very foreign to. It was not something that was so readily accepted by those communities. But the Guide Academy has come a long way in demonstrating the opportunity within this industry, especially in these remote areas where it could be a very large percentage of the local jobs. But it's also helped to break down some of those cultural barriers as well, where some of these students are realizing, okay, culturally we don't play with our food and release it — this is about subsistence, it's survival. But for a lot of the anglers out there, fly fishing is born out of a real deep connection and respect for these waters and these fish. And so I think that's helped really open a lot of people's eyes, kind of both ways, in regards to what all fly fishing encompasses and how that opportunity exists within these communities.

On Step Alaska: So going forward, it seems like that's a really successful, great thing. You've got good runs. It's such a pristine, intact ecosystem, even though there are communities there — it's a very light intensity, I guess. But as we know, as our thirst for technology and all those sorts of things continues to grow, what are some of the threats going forward that might disrupt the future of that area?

Marian Giannulis: Well, any Alaskan who is listening to this podcast, and most of the anglers and outdoors people in the lower 48 as well, are absolutely aware of the 20-year battle that Bristol Bay has been locked in to defend their incredible fishery from the threat of industrial-scale mining. We've seen some pretty significant safeguards from the federal government that have put up an initial line of defense. But right now we have a really incredible opportunity with the Alaska legislature to create lasting safeguards for the Bristol Bay Fisheries Reserve. Last year in the spring, Representatives Edgmon and Josephson introduced a bill to safeguard the Bristol Bay Fisheries Reserve from metallic sulfide mining. And the reserve itself was created in 1972 by the legislature. It spans all the major salmon-producing rivers in Bristol Bay — we're talking about the world's most productive wild salmon fishery that produces over half of our global sockeye harvest. And in a world where a lot of these runs are not as productive anymore, we're seeing record returns for sockeye in the region. So the ecological importance is incredible. The economic importance is incredible — we're talking about 15,000 jobs and $2.2 billion of annual economic activity, a huge portion of Alaska's economy. So back in 1972, under the leadership of Jay Hammond, who was the Senate president at the time and later became governor, they had the incredible foresight to create the Bristol Bay Fisheries Reserve and block oil and gas development from the region. At that time they wanted to monitor metallic sulfide mining. So the current law requires the Alaska legislature to permit any metallic sulfide mine in the region. But in the past 20 years, the fight that Bristol Bay has been in to defend its waters — we've seen countless science demonstrating that this type of mining is incompatible with salmon habitat. This type of mining is incompatible in a region where the majority of the water table is sitting six feet below the ground, and it's crisscrossed with endless rivers and streams and lakes. House Bill 233, which would permanently prohibit metallic sulfide mining within the reserve, is a response to that science and a continuation of the protections that the state has already enacted going way back to the 70s.

On Step Alaska: Yeah, it's a difficult conversation to have because a lot of people think that if you are against large-scale industrial mining, you think that energy can just be created with magic. And it's not true. You can be for mining, but not for every single mine in every single area, because then you don't really have a balance — it's a trade-off. You're trading one resource for another. And when it comes to industrial-scale mining, it doesn't grow back. Like a forest that you log can grow back — it might not be as healthy, but it can grow back. You don't grow back these areas that are mined.

Marian Giannulis: Yeah. And all the science that we've seen come out of the effort to have mining in Bristol Bay over the last 20 years has demonstrated that it's incompatible. So you're exactly right, Jeff. It's not no mines. It's no mines in the places where they've been deemed scientifically incompatible. And when you're talking about trading out a sustainable resource that has fed the indigenous communities there for millennia and driven their culture, that has had a very robust commercial fishing industry come out of it, that has had an incredibly productive sport fishing and tourism industry come out of it as well — that combined industry is 15,000 jobs and $2.2 billion. So when you're talking about swapping it out, the numbers don't make sense. You are trading one resource that has a limited lifespan and limited jobs, that has been scientifically proven to degrade the really robust natural resource that is sustainable.

On Step Alaska: Dagen, what was it like growing up in that kind of atmosphere? Did you always feel that there was this pending potential doom, or did you not worry about it? Growing up there, you had to be thinking about it as these sorts of things are discussed.

Dagen Walton: Yeah, no, I mean, it kind of looms over you all the time. All the money and effort that my family has put into the businesses that we have in the area — it definitely looms in the back of your mind. I've always been a glass-half-full kind of guy, but there's been more trying times in recent years, I feel, than others where it's been harder to maybe maintain that half-full mentality. But yeah, it absolutely looms over you a bit.

On Step Alaska: What would either one of you say to someone who says our growth, our need for technology and minerals and mining like that, supersedes something like fish? What would you say to those sorts of alternatives? Do you have like a concise one or two sentence thing, or how would you go about engaging with someone who wanted to talk? Because sometimes people don't want to talk about these things. Sometimes they're hard-lined and they won't listen. But there are a lot of people in the middle who are like, oh, this is kind of conflicted — I'm not really sure where else we would do these sorts of things. Do you have a line for that?

Dagen Walton: Tough question on the fly. I mean, I guess what comes to mind for me, having lived out there and partaken in the resource that is there on such a consistent basis, is that it is consistent. It's there year in and year out, and it's something that you can rely on into perpetuity if we continue to manage it in a healthy manner. Whereas these finite large-scale mines — they're finite. They have a finish line. They won't be there forever. The effects would be there forever, but the resource would not. And some places are too precious to lose. In Bristol Bay, when we're talking about safeguarding the fishery, we're talking about the people of Bristol Bay and the people of Alaska. So it's not just fish — it's the countless Alaskan families and businesses like mine who rely on the sustainable resource for their livelihoods and make up a huge portion of the state's economy.

Marian Giannulis: Yeah, it's the fish, but it's so much more. It's everything they represent — the ecosystems and economies and cultures and livelihoods that they power.

On Step Alaska: Yeah, I don't think that people understand kind of what it looks like every year. People come up on the cruise ships, they look around and they just think — it's crazy, where are the lights in between? I had a friend from New York come up and visit one summer and we were driving to a Forest Service cabin over on Prince of Wales Island. And we got out of town about a mile and he was like, where are the streetlights? I'm like, Matt, we're out of town. There's no linking of town between town — it's not just nonstop lights and freeways. We are out here. And we got to the Forest Service cabin, and it was my buddy Matt's birthday, and his mom had called our home and asked for the phone number for the cabin. Because again, your mindset when you've been in New York is that if you're staying at a lake cabin, it's a cabin that has a phone — so why can't I call my son for his birthday? So what people expect when it comes to this — it's a region that really no one lives at, but there are a lot of people who live there. And until you see what it is and see what would be destroyed, I think it's just unfathomable. Because people assume that maybe most of the world already looks like the East Coast, where you have patches of land or expansive areas that aren't really valuable. Like there are some prairie sections where it's just, nothing really out there. But the magnitude of Alaska and these regions — it would be an absolute shame to just fork it over to foreign mining companies.

Marian Giannulis: Yeah. And Alaskans know this. We did a recent poll — 95% of Alaskans support long-term safeguards for Bristol Bay, and that's across Republicans, independents, and Democrats. We've had some incredible support from the lower 48 in recent years when we were working to get safeguards at the federal level, and just comment periods where people were overwhelmingly speaking against it. But Alaska is a very pro-development state. And so the 20-year conversation around mining in Bristol Bay did not start out with 95% support, that's for sure. It started out with locals who were concerned, who were hearing some pitches about proposed development and who were like, what is this about? And as they raised the alarm, that conversation has spread. The science and public opinion has continued to evolve. But now that we know the full repercussions that could come of this, we have that incredible amount of state-based support. And that is huge for a state that, prior to Bristol Bay, is not saying no to any mining proposals anywhere. I think that really speaks to the significance of the region and its importance to our state and to the world.

On Step Alaska: How long have you been with Trout Unlimited?

Marian Giannulis: I started in 2021. I'm coming up on my five-year anniversary this spring.

On Step Alaska: There are a lot more tools available to people now. You're talking about the last 20 years and the emergence of social media, YouTubes — there are just so many different tools that are available to get the message out to people, but can also be used on the other side to kind of manipulate things. So has social media, the internet, podcasts — all those things — helped educate people? And has it maybe also been a detriment, because everything can work both ways?

Marian Giannulis: Yeah, you know, it's been incredibly helpful. We wouldn't have had the incredible turnout that we've had for every comment period that the federal government has held for Bristol Bay without the tools of digital organizing at our disposal. Because this is a place where many Alaskans have never been, honestly, let alone people from the lower 48. So being able to widely share the images of Bristol Bay that some people may never see, but they dream about, has been hugely influential. And there have been a couple of kind of milestones in the fight we've had. The Red Gold video — that was huge in getting the word out about the threats to Bristol Bay. But more recently, even something like Fat Bear Week — that's huge. It's everywhere. Any national news outlet or morning show during Fat Bear Week is giving daily updates. And that's an incredible form of outreach because those bears are feeding on salmon. They're congregating there for a reason. And so being able to share content like that — just these incredible corners of Alaska that have these salmon runs that are chock full, these 30-inch trophy rainbow trout that are feeding on them, these incredible predators, bears that are feeding on them — showing that to the rest of Alaska who might not be able to get there themselves and to the rest of the world has been a huge part of our fight.

On Step Alaska: As far as — now we'll get to the really, really good stuff here. So for those 30-inch rainbows, I see you're wearing a Sage shirt. Are you a Sage fly rod person? Is that your preferred rod?

Marian Giannulis: I have a couple of Sages. I have a couple others from different companies as well. I wouldn't say that I'm smitten to just one, but I do enjoy the wands that Sage makes.

On Step Alaska: So if you're headed there and you can only take one rod, what's your rod? What reel, what weight, what length, what line — and then one fly. What's that entire setup? In case someone is going shopping right now, in case they think for Valentine's Day they're getting a Bristol Bay fly rod setup, what should they ask for?

Dagen Walton: You would buy a 7-foot-8-inch, 8-weight switch rod — a 10'8 from Beulah. And then you would pair it with a Nautilus CCF X2, but you'd have to put a little bit of felt inside the spool so that your running line doesn't squeak out. And I'd put a two-hand setup on it. I'd fish it to swing flies.

On Step Alaska: Marion?

Marian Giannulis: I will say I agree with Dagen here, because I fished with that rod of his this fall and then I promptly bought one for myself immediately afterwards. And my husband and I have been fighting over it — him trying to take it every time without me. And it's like, okay, you can take it, but if you break it we're going to have problems. And the incredible thing about that rod is just its versatility. I fished it double-handed swinging flies, but for a lot of our Alaska trout rivers you're talking about fishing a bead under an indicator for a good part of the year, and you can do that with that rod as well. So it's really so versatile and it just casts like a dream. So yeah, shout out Beulah.

On Step Alaska: What would be the advantage of the switch rod versus a single-handed rod if someone really loved their single-handed rod? Obviously they could bring it, but I mean I have a 10-foot Echo switch and I really love it for steelhead and whatnot. But why up there? And at what point — what sold you on the two-handed rod?

Dagen Walton: The two-handed rod, specifically switch rods, and especially around that length — the 10-foot, it's not even 11-foot — you can single-hand cast that rod with a proper line setup. In fact, Marion has good experience using a kind of a line that can do a little bit of go-between, fishing from a boat with an indicator with that rod. So it's really versatile. It gives you a little more reach from the boat, a little bit more mending capability if you're using indicators. But then if you would like to fish two-handed and swing flies, then it's totally set up for that. Not that you can't do that with a single-hand rod, but you can do it more efficiently with two-hand practice.

Marian Giannulis: Yeah, just getting that distance — casting it with two hands. I really got a crash course in spey fishing from Dagen this fall. I was playing around with his spey rods and switch rods. And what I really loved about the spey rod is that it's specific water that you're fishing it with, and just the length affects how you fight the fish. I love that the switch is kind of just a nice middle of the road where you can cast it two-handed and get some wicked distance off of it, but when you're fighting fish it doesn't so much feel like you're fighting fish on a spey rod. I just kind of prefer that shorter length for line control, and then with fighting the fish as well.

On Step Alaska: What about line?

Dagen Walton: Line gets really technical when it comes to your two-hand, your spey, and your switch setups. You have to have proper grain weights and lengths of heads. So I carry a wallet of heads with me everywhere I go. And sometimes I'm fishing multi-density stuff if I'm trying to get deeper, or fishing just a straight floating setup to fish a little higher in the water column. So I try and be prepared. But finding your correct grain window on your rod is the most important thing when it comes to your two-hand rods. On my 10-foot-8-inch Beulah, I use a 450-grain Scientific Angler. It's short. There are other lines that work on that rod, but that's the one I've found that I really enjoy.

Marian Giannulis: Dagen is such a gear junkie and so knowledgeable. You could have a whole other podcast where you're talking about it.

On Step Alaska: He says it with such authority. It's like, that's it. Drop the mic, period, end of sentence. Yeah, and hopefully we can meet in person sometime and maybe share some water somewhere and I'll open up the tackle box there and you'll see there's a lot of stuff going on in there.

On Step Alaska: What about flies? I was casting a just huge Dolly Llama for kings up in Juneau with my switch rod, and the wind picks up a little bit and you're just really chucking it and you just hear the Dolly Llama come by the ear and you're just — oh, okay, it went by. You put your hood up, but that's just a little bit of fabric and it seems like the hook would just go through it and embed in the fabric. And even without a barb, it's just going to be brutal. But it kind of flies.

Dagen Walton: Yeah, it's not even the hook that I worry about. It's the cannonball in the front of those Dolly Llamas.

On Step Alaska: It carries some force. Yeah, the old chuck and duck. The Kenai chuck and duck.

Dagen Walton: I fish a lot of various patterns of streamers. I fish a lot of weightless flies though, and try and hone in on the proper sink tip. I think they swim a little bit better. There are times where I feel like you need weight, and so I have weighted flies with me at all times. But I've found in recent years that I do fish a lot more weightless flies. In the fall I fish a lot of flesh. I typically have about four or five rods rigged in the boat ready to go. One bead rod that gets picked up probably 10 times all fall. And then four different two-hand setups that have different sink tips or different shooting heads that have some sinking rate to them, or some way to change it from one to the other. And I always have some sort of flesh fly, and then I have a black fly to resort to if I feel I need it.

Marian Giannulis: Just behind my laptop here on my desk is the fly. My personal best rainbow on a Dagen tie. It's a flesh fly. And that reminds me every day why we're in this fight to protect Bristol Bay.

On Step Alaska: Do you like keeping the flies? Do they go into a place of reverence or memorial? I've done that where I've kept the fly because that was the fly I caught my biggest brown trout on or whatever, and then I think — man, that fly should be fished. And the proper way to appreciate the fly is to fish it until it's completely destroyed by the teeth of fish. Do you give reverence to a fly and do you retire flies in a place of honor?

Dagen Walton: I do. In fact, as soon as Marion caught that fish, we netted it, we released it, I grabbed the rod and I immediately clipped it off and said, here you go. There's a time and a place — I don't do it for just any fish or any moment — but that was a monumental moment, especially for that trip and for her. And for me too, it was awesome. It was such a cool moment to share. She needed that fly. And I did the same thing with my mom. My mom had a hilarious reaction on the Kvichak. We were fishing and she had a really tough day earlier — she lost two really good fish, to the point where she was pretty distraught, really upset, asking what am I doing wrong, why do I keep losing these fish? And sometimes the fish are just going to outdo you a little bit or something happens out of your control. So I'm talking her through this, and then we go to a different spot and she hooks into a really good fish. I didn't totally quantify at the time how good this fish was at first — she's hooked in, she says, hey Dagen, I think I need a net. And when we got it kind of close to us, a lot of times one of the first signs that it's truly a big fish is where you see the line enter the water and then you see the tail — and the tip of the tail is going to be out of the water as it's trying to keep its head down and you're trying to pull it up. So the tail is breaking the surface and you can see the distance between the two. I was like, oh my goodness, this is a real fish. So I get really quiet. I didn't want to say anything that made her any more nervous than she already was. She knew it was a decent fish, but I don't think she quite knew how big it was. And we netted this fish. It was pandemonium. We take a photo, we release it. And then I clipped the fly off and I just put it in my pocket. And she goes, what are you doing? And I said, we're keeping that fly to remember this moment. I have multiple of that exact same pattern — I tie these flies. And that's another part of it for me — I tie almost every fly that I fish now, so I can easily recreate the exact same thing and not feel like I'm missing out. It's not that problem for me. And I'm a sentimental person maybe more than I need to be, so I like keeping them.

Marian Giannulis: Yeah, I love having this fly on my desk every day. It's right next to a bullet that I pulled out of a mountain goat that I shot. It just reminds me why I do this work and the opportunities that Alaskans and all our visitors have because of the work to conserve this habitat. It keeps me going. And that moment was particularly memorable. Dagen and I had probably the best 30 minutes of fishing that I've ever experienced in my life. We had a kind of a short trip and we got there — we were fishing beads a little bit when we got out, and there were a lot of guides on the river who were still fishing beads. But the swing bite was just starting to turn on. And we're like, you know what, we're going to swing it the whole time. Let's see what happens. And that was my first time really fishing with a spey rod. I was trying to stick out this new kind of casting, just swinging the whole time and resisting the urge to just throw on a bead and catch some fish. I had hooked into a few and not landed any — trophy fish that we were really out there for. You know, love all the fish that I catch, was having a great time. But people go to Bristol Bay for those big trout. And we were just about to have to leave for the airport to fly home, and I was swinging into this spot and there was this big old trout that just kept bumping it and not committing, and not committing, and not committing. And Dagen's just watching me — I'm getting so frustrated, resisting the hook set. It's like, okay, this is it for me. It's not going to happen. We have to leave for the airport. And my husband was downstream of us and Dagen's like, we gotta fish down a little. Okay. And we had to be off the river in like 15 minutes. And I just hooked into this incredible fish. And sometimes you can feel the bump a couple of times and they're really not committing, and then sometimes you swing into a fish and it's way out in the middle of the channel before you even know what the heck was going on. And it just ripped my line — incredible fight. My personal best rainbow trout. Amazing. We're celebrating, clip the fly, taking shots. And then we're like, well, we gotta keep fishing. How far can we push this? And then 15 minutes later Dagen hooks into — was that your personal best or up there?

Dagen Walton: No, it's up there though. It was — but yeah, it was a dozen cast — incredible fish. And we're just having the time of our lives. And then a family of bears strolled out on the bank. It was this sow with three cubs, brown bears, and just-second-year cubs. So just a giant family of bears frolicking in the grass and in the water. And we're just sitting there like, this is Bristol Bay. This is why people come here. This is why people work so hard to protect it. It's an incredible place. And to just have an experience like that — truly the most exciting 30 minutes of fishing that I've ever experienced in my entire life. So for a fly like that, that's going on the desk.

Marian Giannulis: Oh yeah, for sure.

On Step Alaska: So in closing here, what would you recommend for people? How can they help? What can they do?

Marian Giannulis: Yeah, thanks for teeing that up. I work for Trout Unlimited here in Alaska. We've been working to safeguard Bristol Bay for 20 years. The best way to stay connected with us is online — talking about all those digital tools that we have at our disposal now. We run the Save Bristol Bay program, so you can go to savebristolbay.org or follow Save Bristol Bay on Instagram or Facebook. And that's the best way to stay up to date on everything that's happening. Right now we have a petition where we're just demonstrating Alaskan support for House Bill 233. Those 95% of Alaskans who do support those long-term safeguards — get on savebristolbay.org, sign the petition. That way we can demonstrate that to our senators and representatives and show them truly this is the breadth of support. This is the future that Alaskans want to see for our most productive wild salmon fishery. Dagen, you got a closer?

Dagen Walton: I think getting behind the fight with Trout Unlimited and how to do it has helped me a lot, because it keeps me in the loop. When I follow their pages it allows me to stay kind of up to speed on what's going on, even spending all the time that I do out there. All the science and all the specifics that Marion mentioned, just us talking right now — those are the things that I get updated on when I follow their outlets. And so I follow their outlets, and when I have the opportunity or see an opportunity to share what they're sharing, I try and put it into my own community and use my own outreach where I can and when I can. And I think one of the best things that anyone — especially locals — can do is get out to Bristol Bay. Go experience it. If you go experience it, you will immediately feel the connection to the area and just how important and how special that area is.

On Step Alaska: Awesome. Well thanks again for being on. I really appreciate it.

Marian Giannulis: Thanks for having us, Jeff.

Dagen Walton: Yeah, thank you, Jeff.

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